I can see from your comment you haven't taken a hunters safety course or game harvesting skills training.

5 Day hunt it should be. I am starting a petition scheduled to start in October to send to Fredericton this winter.

The only people who should be exempt from the hunters safety course are The Natives because their hunt is for is a subsistence.

For you information I have all the courses one needs to hunt, trap, shoot anything he wants back there,

A Guides licences, a outfitters business for years, a Range Officer course, Coaching etc etc etc.

And NONE of them did I need or had to pass,,,

But I don't descriminate anybody,, old young, french, english, red or yellow,,, if you have the right to apply so be it,,, I just want us to work on a system that everybody could apply

but the # of Groups would be less,, thus giving everyone a better chance at getting a license that's all

If I judge by your profile we are neighbours,, either you are in Eel River(Bar) or Crossing,, and if you are from the reserve, be careful for the native subsistence, as you know as well as me, what is going on the reserve with SOME natives hunting....I have alot of respect for Natives , but what some of them do in order to get a buzz on, I don't have much respect for that

 

This does make sense Axeman, but what is it do yous want,, a tag every year?
It will never happend.

I see a longer season like this,, there's +/- 4500 tags available every year,, wether we kill those 4500 in 3 days, 5 days, 3 months or more, doesn't change a damn thing on the # of tags that are allocated,,,, if they allocate that # it's because at some point in their herd management, they figure the herd can support such a loss every year.
When we have enough Moose in N.B. to support a tag for anyone who wants one, WE will complain because we are over run with them,, NFLD is a good example.

We had 5 days hunt for the last 2 years, 3,728 harvested in 2015 out of a possibility of 4 592 and 3,683 harvested in 2014,, 1% increase, but still far from the quotas allocated
Give hunters a month and some will still not be successful

Do you need 5 days to kill a Moose? Nope , some do it in 15mins of hunting, others don't get any at all, and it has nothing to do with who is a better hunter.

Moose thrive in the type of Forests we complain about for Deer, clear cuts, hard woods, bogs etc.,,,, the more they destroy the Deer habitat, the more Moose we're gonna have.
N.B. is surround by 8' fences so we don't kill ourselves driving down the highway.

You are missing the point entirely.
4500 tags issued is NOT the quota nor desired harvest.....it is the number of tags issued that is required to achieve the desired harvest of say 3600 moose for example.
ie;The Bios know the success rate is 80%,so to kill the desired 3600 moose that they've determined to be ideal,they know they need to issue 4500 tags.
The success rate is higher over a 5 day hunt vs. a 3 day hunt.....therefore LESS tags are issued.
Another example....if you say "Let's have a one month hunt,what's the diff?"
The difference is,over a 30 day hunt,let's say success rate increases to 90%?
That means they now only need to issue 4000 tags to kill that same 3600 moose.
Now let's say we go back to a 3 day hunt and success drops only 5% to 75%......that means 4800 hunters will get drawn and have their chance at a moose....an increase of 300 tags to kill that same 3600 moose.
So now let's go extreme and make moose season wide open from Sept.25-Nov.25ish/last day of deer season,cuz as you say,3days,3weeks,3 months who cares,poachers will be poachers,yes?
First of all,anybody still holding a tag come deer season will have all of his buddies in camp gunning for a moose,granted.
Next,success increases to 99%.
Now you only need to issue 3635 tags to kill 3600 moose,a loss of opportunity of 865 tags vs the 5 day season,and almost 1200 tags vs. a 3 day season.
Longer season results in LESS opportunity,LESS chance of being drawn,and longer wait times to draw a tag because LESS tags are issued.

 

I'll concede that quality of hunt is greater with a longer season.Most NBers in a 3 day season will shoot the first moose they get a scope on,because passing a bird in hand for one in the bush,or holding out for a trophy monster bull or a 2.5 meat bull might mean eating tag soup in a 3 day season.......but that said,you need to accept that a longer season and the corresponding higher success that goes with it results in less tags and less chance of being drawn,which is the #1 complaint of NB moose hunters.

 

Albertabound.....you post is as clear as it gets number wise......Good post I might add!!!
Now the BIG QUESTION or The Main one is ( and again to each his own) What's is the thing that you think is the best idea that would work for New Brunswickers.

1- 5 day hunt

2- more tags available

3- Tryout basis Bow tag application for Bow hunters( no 2nd licence) if you apply for bow....can't apply for firearm.

4- Leave the system in place and live with it.

Just curious how many hunters hunt moose with a bow?

Every year as you know the moose hunt in general is always a hot topic and one that sometimes brings some unwanted baggage to the site.......

What would be the percentage of bow hunter's that get a moose?????

AG

 

Absolutely,why not have a 6day bow season prior to the gun hunt?It would have minimal effect on the total moose harvest,but it could give 25-50% more hunters(?) the opp to hunt moose every year.
ie;assuming there is somewhere between 2000-3000 bowhunters in NB,and you can only apply for either bow or rifle,not both.
So assuming 2000 decide to apply for bow moose,and assuming success will be relatively low because 1)your hunting with a bow first of all,and 2) you need to get within bow range of moose that are less cooperative and less susceptible to calling prior to the rut.....so let's say projected success is 20%......you could issue 1000 bow tags every year,adding only 200 moose to the harvest,and a guy could draw a bow tag every 2nd year.....or suppose you gave out 2000 tags,almost gauranteed to get drawn every year,almost 50% more hunters get the opportunity to hunt moose(4500 gun + 2000 bow tags) and the total harvest only increases by a little more then 10%?(400 bow kills/3600 rifle)
The bow tag quota could easily be adjusted to reflect success rate and harvest goals after a couple years of data.....but even @500 bow tags,a guy could get drawn every 4 years vs. the current 15yr average?
.....but then I spose ya'd have crossguners whining and demanding they be allowed to apply for archery moose and F up the whole deal,so instead of 2000 bowhunters now you have 15,000,and instead of a 4yr wait,now you have 28yrs,DOH!

 

A moose bow draw ????

 

A moose bow draw

Im all for it. As long as we can use crossbows.

 

You are missing the point entirely.
4500 tags issued is NOT the quota nor desired harvest.....it is the number of tags issued that is required to achieve the desired harvest of say 3600 moose for example.
ie;The Bios know the success rate is 80%,so to kill the desired 3600 moose that they've determined to be ideal,they know they need to issue 4500 tags.
The success rate is higher over a 5 day hunt vs. a 3 day hunt.....therefore LESS tags are issued.
Another example....if you say "Let's have a one month hunt,what's the diff?"
The difference is,over a 30 day hunt,let's say success rate increases to 90%?
That means they now only need to issue 4000 tags to kill that same 3600 moose.
Now let's say we go back to a 3 day hunt and success drops only 5% to 75%......that means 4800 hunters will get drawn and have their chance at a moose....an increase of 300 tags to kill that same 3600 moose.
So now let's go extreme and make moose season wide open from Sept.25-Nov.25ish/last day of deer season,cuz as you say,3days,3weeks,3 months who cares,poachers will be poachers,yes?
First of all,anybody still holding a tag come deer season will have all of his buddies in camp gunning for a moose,granted.
Next,success increases to 99%.
Now you only need to issue 3635 tags to kill 3600 moose,a loss of opportunity of 865 tags vs the 5 day season,and almost 1200 tags vs. a 3 day season.
Longer season results in LESS opportunity,LESS chance of being drawn,and longer wait times to draw a tag because LESS tags are issued.

I agree with what you are saying and I know the 4500 tags delivered is because they know 3600 moose will be killed.

When you say people still holding a tag come Deer Season will have everybody at camp gunning for a Moose, you are talking the same way the DNR officers

you make it sound as if everybody out there holding a firearm is a poacher. I know some will do it, but it's not the majority who will

Now we all know they can't issue tags more than they are already issuing, or not much more, because if they could, they probably already would.

So how do we make a system that you would get a tag lets say every 3-5 years, with the # of tags that are already in the draw, 4 500?

That system is very easy to do, Prioritize Group Hunting,, groups of 2, 3, 4, 5 or more,, the bigger your group the better your odds at getting a license

The way it works is when you apply within a Group, all the #'s go in the draw, once a # gets picked, all the other #'s that applied with that group get taken out of the draw. The license is allocated to the person within the group who has been applying the most # of years and has gone longest without being drawn.

Ex: Joe, Outdoor Card #123

Bob, Outdoor Card #456

Fred, Outdoor Card #789

Grand Ma, Outdoor Card #1357

Every card #'s Group Priority is still in place, Joe is in Group 4, 81 ballots and so on.

At time of Application, you either apply as a Group leader, or a group member. When you apply as a Group Leader, you are given a # that every member

of your Group will need in order to apply.

Lets say they apply as a Group, all the Card #'s go in the draw,, lets say Fred's # 789 is picked,,, Joe, Bob and Grand Ma's #s are then taken out of the draw.

The GROUP is allocated a license, not FRED,,, the Group,,, the person who has the most # of years without being drawn etc. lets say Joe, has to put the license in his name

and who ever within the group that wants to take second can. Once you apply as a Group, the Group cannot be modified, and all members of the Group has to be active member

of the hunt.

We now apply for a single Zone, why not do like for Salmon, 1st Choice, 2nd Choice, 3rd Choice?

Also,, there's +/- 100 tags not purchased every year,, make a 2nd draw for all UNSUCCESSFUL applicants.

Open the hunt from the last week of September like it is now, to the last full week of October.. First week is Bull, Cows, Calves like we have now,, other weeks are Bulls only?

We could go even further with this, Groups of 4 or more, with 1 member who has gone 25+ years without success, would be guaranteed a license

There's only +/- 150 of these hunters,,,, that's +/-150 Groups, +/- 600 hunters.

As we have it now 4 500 licenses are allocated, most hunt with a group, but we don't know how many hunters take part on those hunts,

we only can be 100% sure on 4 500 hunters,,, Group hunting, lets say average Group size would be 3, that's 13 500 hunters.

I only speculate, but I would imagine people would apply as groups of 4, for all kind of reasons, but 4 is more practical I think.

That's 15 000 groups, that's a license every 3.3 years on average.

The idea of a Bow hunt etc. is good, but like you say, you'll have Crossgunners applying for Bow and screw the whole system up, but maybe if you want to Bow hunt

if you are allocated a tag, at time of purchase, you say you want to Bow hunt, then your licence is only good for Bow hunting, and season is 1st full week of November,

if it's better for Bow hunters I don't know, or last week of September wich ever. Your Bow license cannot be transfered to a Gun.

These are just a few ideas thrown together after checking out other Canadian provinces Moose Draw systems,, Ontario, in my opinion, is about the best system we could

tweek out to adapt to our situation

 

Ideal would be a hybrid of Ontario's Party Hunt system combined with AB's priority points system.

 

Ideal would be a hybrid of Ontario's Party Hunt system combined with AB's priority points system.

Our Priority points system is a bit the same as AB, but the draw is not the same, that's why people with only 2 years priority can get a tag and people with 20+ years don't get one.

But like you say, a Hybrid of AB, Ont. and N.B. probably would work and everyone might be a happy bird

With the Group Hunting, every members group priority points that we have in place now, could be calculated, so a group of 4 with members who all have 20+ years without being drawn, would have more chances that the group of 4 where members only have 5-9years without being drawn

Ontario's system is a bit complicated to understand, especially if you are an outsider like us trying to figure it out, but basically what it boils down to, each Zone is divided with group size in mind, every group that meets the quotas etc. is given priority, so tags are given out to them first, then it goes down to the next one, etc. etc.

So if it were in N.B., Zones would be given a quota like now, largest quota Zones would mean larger group size etc, when a group meets all the Zones specifications etc, they then give out tags to all groups who meet those specifications, if tags are still left they go down to the next and so on, until all tags have been allocated.

The problem I see with Ontario's, is group size can be up to 15, so people try to find groups that are missing members to meet certain specification, thus you might

hunt with a group of people you have never met before,, kinda weird stuff if you ask me lol

 

I beg to differ,NB's system is terrible and nothing like AB.Im also quite familiar with Ont system,having lived there 6 years in the 90's,although iirc,party size max was 8 hunters at that time?All party members automatically got a calf tag,as Ont considers calves to be expendable and allows everybody in the party a chance to take a moose,and depending upon quota for the zone,the party might receive 1 to several adult tags,which any party member could fill.
AB doesn't have party hunting per sè,but.......I know a group of 4 buds that have hunted together for decades.They hunt in a zone that usually requires a P4 or P3 to draw a bull tag.....so they've staggered their priorities now,and every year one of the 4 is on deck with enough priority to draw the tag.So every year they hit camp with a pocketful of deer and elk tags,and 1 bull moose tag......not really 100% legal,but they don't concern themselves too much with who shoots the moose.AB also offers a Partner/2nd gun licence same as NB.

 

I know a family this neck of the woods and when I say family I mean family......They're about 10-12 that apply( yes some wives do apply) but when they were lucky enough to draw a tag, they all go hunting together( the wives also). But a year I remember they had 3 tags, but if they would apply as a group for instance and were only allowed 1 tag.....2 tags for someone else????

We have a so called Group 3 guys that are fenatics and 5-6 if I get my moose tag would you bring me out!!!! And who's going to refuse a hunter with a moose tag!

4 years ago we, they had 3 tags and 2 tags too many in my book.... 2 tags that shoulda, coulda went to other applicants?

Mayby a group pool would be a good thing?????

AG

 

Yeah both AB and Ont. is a bit complicated to understand their draw system, but like I say could be adapted to N.B. I'm sure without problem

Maximum group size in Ont. is now 15, well it was last year anyhow..

 

I know a family this neck of the woods and when I say family I mean family......They're about 10-12 that apply( yes some wives do apply) but when they were lucky enough to draw a tag, they all go hunting together( the wives also). But a year I remember they had 3 tags, but if they would apply as a group for instance and were only allowed 1 tag.....2 tags for someone else????

We have a so called Group 3 guys that are fenatics and 5-6 if I get my moose tag would you bring me out!!!! And who's going to refuse a hunter with a moose tag!

4 years ago we, they had 3 tags and 2 tags too many in my book.... 2 tags that shoulda, coulda went to other applicants?

Mayby a group pool would be a good thing?????

AG

Something like that yes,,, People would still be able to apply as individuals, but applying with a Group would give you a better chance at being part of a Hunt.
Doesn't mean you would have a better chance at a license in your name, but if the group you hunt with gets a tag, you and everybody in the group would have to be physically

there during the hunt.

Last year 3 members of a household (Family), Husband, Wife and Daughter, got a license, their son who lives next door, got his too,,, that's 4 tags for one family,, kind of a bit too much if you ask me,, but that's the odds of a draw.

I don't Hunt with a Group, nor do I apply for a Group,, I apply alone, my wife don't like to hunt, she don't apply, same goes for my son,, so when I get a license, like 2 years ago

I go ALONE,, the buddies can cry all they want, when they get a tag, they hunt with their group, well when they don't get a tag, they cry and curse as a group, not with me

And I'm fanatic enough about Moose Hunting to offer to pay all expenses to anyone who has a license...

 

I beg to differ,NB's system is terrible and nothing like AB.Im also quite familiar with Ont system,having lived there 6 years in the 90's,although iirc,party size max was 8 hunters at that time?All party members automatically got a calf tag,as Ont considers calves to be expendable and allows everybody in the party a chance to take a moose,and depending upon quota for the zone,the party might receive 1 to several adult tags,which any party member could fill.
AB doesn't have party hunting per sè,but.......I know a group of 4 buds that have hunted together for decades.They hunt in a zone that usually requires a P4 or P3 to draw a bull tag.....so they've staggered their priorities now,and every year one of the 4 is on deck with enough priority to draw the tag.So every year they hit camp with a pocketful of deer and elk tags,and 1 bull moose tag......not really 100% legal,but they don't concern themselves too much with who shoots the moose.AB also offers a Partner/2nd gun licence same as NB.

I can only imagine what kind of screw up it would be if AB hunting regulations were the same here,, you can hunt down the road, but not across the road, can hunt on left hand side

but not less than some many yards, license is valid for Deer under Hydro, but not valid for Moose under Hydro,, etc. etc. etc.

 

I guess for the hunting community has to come up with a system DNR would buy into that would enable legitimate hunters a way to get a chance to shoot a moose once or more in their own province.

When we can come up with that solution that cant be scammed we should still do it on a five day moose hunt.

If the associations would get a few scenarios on the web perhaps one could take the lead and make a presentation to the DNR.

That being said this Government will expect to have the same dollars for the draws and care little about the hunting part.

Even though they are raising taxes and some licence fees this week.

Then again in July. Now we don't even have some of our Ranger station any longer.

 

I guess for the hunting community has to come up with a system DNR would buy into that would enable legitimate hunters a way to get a chance to shoot a moose once or more in their own province.

When we can come up with that solution that cant be scammed we should still do it on a five day moose hunt.

If the associations would get a few scenarios on the web perhaps one could take the lead and make a presentation to the DNR.

That being said this Government will expect to have the same dollars for the draws and care little about the hunting part.

Even though they are raising taxes and some licence fees this week.

Then again in July. Now we don't even have some of our Ranger station any longer.

Govt will buy in a system that won't give prejudice anyone. By this I mean, no one can say who is a legitimate hunter and who is not, so anyone can apply if they meet the requirements at the time of application.

Scammers will always find a way to play the system, whatever that system is, someone will try to play around it. We just have to make it so that even if they play around it, they still don't profit from it.

With a Group application the Govt. still makes the same amount of $, as the same # of people have to apply. With a 2nd draw the Govt. would make another +/- $500 000.00, wich is only good for them, + the $ generated with the purchase of all them unsold licences.. +/- $10 000.00

As we know it, a lot of the hunting, fishing regulations are proposed buy hunting associations, but what is good for one part of the Prov. might not me true for another, that's why forums like these are a good place to get people's ideas, and work on something that would suit the majority.

 

Main problem with all the fighting isn't the season lengths or time of year..
its the lack of sportsmanship among hunters nowadays..

It happens the same for Deer . Bear.. Duck.. whatever.
People are the problem..(not the seasons), and it just seems to get worse and worse unfortunately...

i will agree here also!!!!

alot of truth to that statement!

 

I can only imagine what kind of screw up it would be if AB hunting regulations were the same here,, you can hunt down the road, but not across the road, can hunt on left hand side
but not less than some many yards, license is valid for Deer under Hydro, but not valid for Moose under Hydro,, etc. etc. etc.

Haha,yea AB hunt regs "were" a bit confusing and overwhelming at first,but not too difficult once you get used to it.
The main thing is knowing EXACTLY where you are,what seasons are open there vs. across the road/river etc.,point restrictions(a legal 3pt bull elk might be illegal 50yards away on other side of road where it's 6pt min).....and not only what WMZ you are in,but exactly who's property you are on,fence lines,boundaries etc.,private vs. crown,permission or not,this side of fence or that side......AB trespass laws are far more strict then NB's and actually have teeth and consequences.Theres none of this red disc/yellow disc/ no disc have at'er nonsense.....you either have permission or you don't.Hunting without permission in AB is considered POACHING and carries a substantial fine,along with minimum 1yr hunting prohibition 1st offence,so ya damn well better KNOW who's land yer on before you squeeze the trigger.

 

Theres none of this red disc/yellow disc/ no disc have at'er nonsense.....you either have permission or you don't.Hunting without permission in AB is considered POACHING and carries a substantial fine,along with minimum 1yr hunting prohibition 1st offence,so ya damn well better KNOW who's land yer on before you squeeze the trigger.

Should be the same here in N.B.,, even tho we don't see this in the northern part of the prov. as it is 95% crown land

 

Should be the same here in N.B.,, even tho we don't see this in the northern part of the prov. as it is 95% crown land

Actually,it's only the last couple years that AB has really cracked down on trespassing due to excessive complaints from landowners.Prior to then,it was only a $200(?) fine,if you even got caught and prosecuted,so too many slobs were more then willing to take a drive-by crack at a Booner and/or deer of a lifetime where they didn't have permission....I mean WTF,$200 is jack chit and just a fraction of the cost of a hunting season,yes?
So now,with much more expensive fines,plus the hunting prohibition,guys think twice,although it's still an ongoing issue according to the forum chatter every fall.