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That right there is just plain stupid. I wouldnt hesitate to do as he did for a second. Them litle buggers, are just usuless pieces of crap to have the guts to charge someone after they are the ones in the wrong, Our justice system is a joke. I hope this man gets off and i hope the litle lazy buggers stealing and takin from honest hard working ppl, get whats coming to them.
 

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Our Justice System is a Joke, u are right Duckhunter. I catch someone sneaking around or tryin' to get into my house i Promise you they will be having a bad day. In My eyes its protect my family, ask questions about it later.
 
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The man protecting this home seems to be the news. What about the the prowlers??? not a word of if they have been charged with anything.
I was faced with the small thing last fall. Around 9:00pm on the friday before Thanksgiving. I seen a flashlight in my truck; my shotgun was close by because I just finished cleaning it then to bed. I seen the light and ran out in long johns to stop my truck from being jacked. The guy got away, the cops took a look around; 45 minutes after.
I knew that I would be in more trouble than the guy if I took the gun.
Things are not fair...live and learn. Since then I have taken measures to protect myself from being the "guy in trouble" in the same situation again.
 

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Just one more reason why no one should ever call the rcmp.

I see nothing wrong with what this guy did other than having his wife call the rcmp.

They are not here to serve and protect as they would have us to belive, they are here to enforce the law, good or bad ethical or unethical it seems to make no difference to them and they seem in most cases unwilling or unable to use their own discretion to leave poor guys like this alone and go after the real criminals. There may be a lot of good rcmp officers out there but I shure havent met any yet, and ive met quite a few over the years.

 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The RCMP wanted to charge the other neighbor with assault but the crown prosecutor would not go along with that. I didn't think he actually touched any of the prowlers. Maybe he just threatened to to something.

It sounds like the guy with the gun was just showing them the gun to scare them off. It was unloaded and not pointed at them.

Anyway, the RCMP wanted both home owners charged. If prowlers come around our home in the night, I guess we are supposed to hide under the covers.
 

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Does anybody know if they got the right kids or not, the article doesn't say, it only says they grabbed up some kids, don't know if they were the ones actually creating the mischief or just happened to be in the area.
If I was walking through a neighborhood and saw a shirtless guy, at night, in March standing on his front porch with a shotgun I'd find that a little disturbing regardless of the circumstances. Gun not loaded? Doesn't matter,I don't know from looking at it if its loaded or not, next time it might be loaded, next time some other person with no military training thinks its okay because the neighbor did it, fires a rifle on purpose or by accident and it goes through your front door. No indication his family was threatened, no indication he was threatened,petty theft and vandalism, in my opinion there is absolutely no reason, in this case, to have escalated the situation to bringing in firearms.
Really we only have 1 side of the story here, I'm quite confident there are a few others, like the kids, the neighbor, the RCMP, we haven't heard from any of them yet. I think I'll reserve my judgement on who's guilty or innocent of what until a few more facts are on the table.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Here are some things reported so far. I suppose more will come out at the trial.

He had awoken around 2:30 a.m., when his neighbour, Brian Fox, phoned to warn him three prowlers were in his backyard, and he was going to confront them. Both men had had their homes and cars damaged by vandals.

"When I got that call, I just thought, 'Great. They're at it again,'" said Mr. Manzer.

Wearing only a pair of pants in -13 weather, Mr. Manzer told his wife to call the police and grabbed his unloaded shotgun. "I stepped out front onto my steps with my firearm for my own protection. There was a lot of yelling and it was pretty dark," he said. "I couldn't make a lot of things out, so I yelled 'Be quiet. The police are on their way.'"

He soon saw Mr. Fox had already been able to get the intruders to sit down. "When I saw that everything was all right, I went back inside and locked up my firearm," said Mr. Manzer.


http://www.nationalpost.com/news/charged+pointing+unloaded+trespassers/3880006/story.html

Manzer said he took the unloaded shotgun outside and kept it pointed at the ground as his neighbor rounded up three teenagers. The small neighborhood was in the midst of a rash of break-ins and vandalism and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police hadn't made any arrests related to the spree, the newspaper said.

Six days later, Manzer said Mounties showed up at his door and charged him with possessing a weapon for a dangerous purpose and seized the shotgun. They also charged his neighbor, Brian Fox, with assault for detaining the teenagers. Fox fought that charge and won, but says he's angry the teenagers only face misdemeanor alcohol charges for having an open bottle of liquor.


http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2010/11/23/Man-protecting-home-charged-over-empty-gun/UPI-376112905
 

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No indication his family was threatened, no indication he was threatened,petty theft and vandalism, in my opinion there is absolutely no reason, in this case, to have escalated the situation to bringing in firearms.
I have to disagree here. If someone is sneaking around my house in "the middle of the night" I am not prepared to assume they are harmless, and risk my safety. Especially given that there is a recent history of theft and vandalism in the area. Its not a far step to burglary, and more serious crimes. I will assume that the perpetrators are there to cause me and my family harm, since that is exactly why they are there.

It is absolutely disgusting in Canada that you are required to let a criminal hurt you, and you are not even allowed to defend yourself. You are not allowed to make preparations to defend yourself, which means it is illegal to take a martial arts class for the purposes of self defence.

Like GirlScout said, I would rather be judged by 12, rather than carried by 6.
 

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Does anybody know if they got the right kids or not, the article doesn't say, it only says they grabbed up some kids, don't know if they were the ones actually creating the mischief or just happened to be in the area.
If I was walking through a neighborhood and saw a shirtless guy, at night, in March standing on his front porch with a shotgun I'd find that a little disturbing regardless of the circumstances. Gun not loaded? Doesn't matter,I don't know from looking at it if its loaded or not, next time it might be loaded, next time some other person with no military training thinks its okay because the neighbor did it, fires a rifle on purpose or by accident and it goes through your front door. No indication his family was threatened, no indication he was threatened,petty theft and vandalism, in my opinion there is absolutely no reason, in this case, to have escalated the situation to bringing in firearms.
Really we only have 1 side of the story here, I'm quite confident there are a few others, like the kids, the neighbor, the RCMP, we haven't heard from any of them yet. I think I'll reserve my judgement on who's guilty or innocent of what until a few more facts are on the table.
I dunno if they arrested the vandals ... but I'm quite sure they didn't grab three kids on their way home from Sunday School at 2AM. I am also very confident that the land owners did not invite these kids on to their property to Drink and carry on loudly.

While I believe I understand where you are going Daveyn and certainly find your thoughts reasonable .... some of the things we seem to now know after the fact include the following
there were 3 youths charged with some liquor infractions.
Also sounds like there was some yelling and screaming,
some previous vandalism
and the individuals in question according to Mr. Manzer were on the large side.

What no one knew ... before the police came, is if these individuals were armed, what their intentions were etc. We also now know that no one was harmed. Finally we clearly know and should not forget IMO that Mr.Manzer was arrested not that evening for something the Police officers observed him doing , but rather a week later in response to information they got from the kids they were there to investigate/ arrest.

While I can appreciate that someone may be disturbed at the sight of a shirtless armed man in a sub division, he was hardly on his porch at high noon in clear view of the kids playing road hockey -- He was awoken in the middle of the night to something equally disturbing .... and anyone that doesn't think the events are similar is frankly relying heavily on hindsight.

I would be very disturbed if 3 large individuals were in my back yard, especially after a rash of vandalism when the police were called. It is almost impossible that someone on this forum is not going to hear reports of friends, neighbors or even themselves getting their belongings stolen, cars broken into etc even in the next few months. The police may or may not come to see you afterwards and the hopes of retrieving your property will not realistically be very positive. They will tell us about Drug addicted individuals who have nothing to lose Desperate for their next fix and that we are lucky they didn't stick around or try and get in our house.

Anyone read the response form the Criminology professor when trying to explain if or where he or someone similar may have crossed the line?

"Boudreau said the question for citizens is always how far they can go.

"If you shoot and kill someone you find breaking into your cellar window, that's excessive force and you won't be able to fall back necessarily on the law and say 'I was protecting myself'."

"Now, if someone's coming at you with a knife or a gun, threatening your life, then maybe you get into the realm of self-defence," he said."


What assurance does Mr.Manzer have that these kids don't have a knife or gun? He takes an unloaded gun outside and gets arrested. What if he went out unarmed and one of these guys had a weapon?

The law is supposed to embody public values, not thwart them. Shame on the RCMP and the Prosecutor !!
 

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According to his account...and only his account cause we don't have any body else saying anything...they were in his neighbors yard not his yard, they weren't in his house and his family was not being threatened, the prudent thing to do would be to stay in your home and call the police, and if you feel your family is in imminent danger then prepare to defend yourself.Not step outside on the porch with a shotgun which might just have the effect of placing you in imminent danger if the perpetrators are armed. Mr Manzer admits he couldn't see anything because it was dark but I bet he made a hell of a target standing on his porch consequently putting himself and his family in more danger not to mention the danger to others in the neighborhood if he in fact instigated a gunfight, which he wouldn't have been able to defend himself against anyway because the gun wasn't loaded.
Just a really stupid thing to do in my opinion, I'm not sure if its criminal or not but it certainly isn't very bright, and if you're going to take a gun to "defend yourself" its probably a good idea to load it. The fact that it wasn't loaded tells me he knew there was no real danger and only took the shotgun as a prop to scare the kids....not an appropriate use of a firearm in my opinion.
 

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The fact that it wasn't loaded tells me he knew there was no real danger and only took the shotgun as a prop to scare the kids.
There has got to be something said about the sensation a criminal must feel when he hears the racking of a pump behind him....


Somewhat unnecessary to bring out the shotgun, I agree... But the cops should have gave him a stern warning, not fancy bracelets.
 

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Somewhat unnecessary to bring out the shotgun, I agree... But the cops should have gave him a stern warning, not fancy bracelets.
That would make a lot more sense to me also, , which is what he might end up with in the end anyway.
 

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Is it just the Unloaded firearm you take issue with? Or would you feel the same way if a man came to the aid of his neighbor (who called him) with a hockey Stick in hand? .... Do you think they'd have charged him if it was a hockey stick?
 

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But he didn't come out with a hockey stick...he came out with a shotgun.
 

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I guess there are a few things that bother me about this whole thing. My first question is why weren't the kids, vandals, whatever you want to call them charged with Criminal Trespass? If you trespass on another person's property between the hours of 9 p.m. and 6 a.m. it is considered Criminal Trespass anywhere in Canada and it falls under the Federal Criminal Code. It also states that the landowner can use reasonable force to subdue any person guilty of this offence until the arrival of police. I'm guessing this is why the assault charge against Mr. Fox, the landowner,didn't stand up. What bothers me about the gun issue is why take the shotgun? If he took it because he felt threatened then why carry it unloaded. If he took it to scare the vandals, thieves, whatever, then thats a great way to get yourself shot if the criminal has a gun and your shotgun isn't loaded. I'm thinking there is more to the story. If I felt threatened enough to take a gun out of my house to confront someone it would be loaded and ready to use. Shotguns aren't very useful unloaded.
 

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But he didn't come out with a hockey stick...he came out with a shotgun.
I know that. My question was had he left his house in the identical circumstances shirtless, -13 etc... and he was armed with a hockey stick or louisville slugger if that helps...... Would you feel the same way? and do you think he would be charged?

And would your view change at all if we were to find out the intruders were armed?
 

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We don't know if the kids were charged with anything or not, its not mentioned in the story but that doesn't mean they weren't charged...we don't know. Its not likely that they were because we are talking about minors here and really, what kind of punishment are you going to give to drunk teenagers running through somebody's yard on a Saturday night. Not saying thats right or okay or anything, but really, in the end thats all they did that we know about. Story doesn't say they broke or took anything...says there is a history in the neighborhood but that doesn't mean those kids did anything on that night except get drunk and make some noise on somebody's property.
As to the question I was asked would I feel the same way if the intruders were armed....first of all they weren't intruding, however lets say they were armed, and I know the question is put out there to take the benefit of hindsight out of the equation, as in lets assume worse case scenario and my neighbor is struggling in his yard with what might be armed assailants what do I do ?
If I'm a trained military guy then I know rule #1 is you don't go rushing into any kind of a hot situation without first making a very careful assessment of the situation, worse thing you can do is inject yourself before you know exactly whats going on. This guy would have had a lot of training around that. So even if he forgot that he should know that rule number 2 is if you are going to bring firearms into the picture you better be prepared to use them...he didn't even load it, which tells me he had it there for effect only and knew exactly what was going on. So I won't play the "what if" game around that....I'm not saying the use of firearms is always inappropriate, I'm saying in this situation it was, kids getting drunk on Saturday night, vandalizing property and uprooting fruit trees doesn't warrant armed intervention and from what I've read here, there is no indication that these particular kids did any vandalizing at all.
Wanna play what if? What if buddy is so pissed off at the vandals that next time he loads the shotgun and my daughter is taking a shortcut across his yard coming home from her boyfriends on Friday night, he thinks its the "intruders" back again, charges out onto the dark porch with his loaded shotgun, trips over the cat in the dark and accidently shoots my kid because somebody tore up his apple tree last week.... What if ?? Loaded or unloaded guns are serious business and need to be dealt with seriously, in my opinion....and its only my opinion, this guy excercised a serious lack of judgement around proper use of firearms and there needs to be consequences to that. You don't F*** with guns, you don't try to scare people with guns, you shoot things with guns and bad things can happen really quickly late at night, in the dark, on the porch with a shotgun hastily grabbed from where ever it was grabbed from.
 
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